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A debate on the 70 AD doctrine (Is the kingdom here?)
Pat,
I want thank you for all the attachments. There were twenty or so, and it took a long time to go through them! I do not want to go into a lengthy discussion regarding all these attachments. As I mentioned to you before, I am very familiar with these arguments that are presented. The 70 AD debate is between you and me and not on other articles written by other men and their opinions. These arguments are very skillfully written, and it is so sad that these writers have the nerve to "humanly" explain and show the true meaning of the words of YAHSHUA "the Christ". It is indeed a shame that these men have taken upon themselves to explain the thinking and the mind of the Creator of the universe, and to also explain the function of the kingdom of God. It is also very strange that these "intelligent" men will not (and can not) explain and answer the same questions that I asked you, Pat. If the kingdom has already been here for 2000 years and YAHSHUA and the resurrected saints have restored true peace and righteousness to a Godless world, where pray tell me, is the evidence in history of this ever happening?? When in history has the real YAHSHUA of the Bible overthrown the kingdoms of Satan, and when has the resurrection of the saints to glory in past history ever taken place? To those that believe that the "trumpet sounds" of Revelation have sounded prior to and during 70 AD, my question has to be; when has the seventh and last trumpet sounded that will resurrect the dead in Christ first. Pat, read and simply believe 1 Cor. 15:52 and 1 Thes. 4:16, and you tell me honestly if the angels have sounded these trumpets including the last trumpet in 70 AD; and then explain how most of the book of Revelation has already been fulfilled. These questions (among others) must be answered, or it is meaningless and serves no purpose for this debate to continue.Pat, with all the events that took place in the book of Acts, and all the persecution going on, etc., it is easy to understand why the apostles truly were convinced that the return of Christ could happen in their lifetime, or at any time. The fact is, they said so! Read what Peter said about the heavenly signs and wonders that are to take place before the great and notable day of the Lord! See Act 2:20. Some of the events (however not all) that Christ explained in Matt. 24 could be applied (however not honestly) to the events that happened in the book of Acts. Also these dire and difficult times in Acts were not in worldwide proportions. According to Revelation, the whole world is effected and taken in by these prophesied events, and it plainly says so a number of times. The book of Revelation must not and cannot be limited to apply just on the known world in that area of that time during the events in the book of Acts!
This whole controversy and argument of the 70 AD doctrine, I believe, can be boiled down to simply be a huge misunderstanding. However this huge misunderstanding on prophesy could turn into a huge deception if sincere believers allow themselves to be taken in by clever men; as many of the modern-day truth seekers have (such as yourself, Pat). I believe these events prior to 70 AD were designed to show a "pattern and a type" of the worldwide events that are to effect the whole world, all people and all the nations in the "latter days". The dire and severe events of the New Testament era in the book of Acts were allowed to happen by a loving and all wise God to prepare believers in the "latter" days. Pat, never underestimate the power of deception and be fooled by the wicked devises of Satan the devil, and the wicked spirits that are in high places.
I will never take the position that my "Kingdom" booklet (or any of my booklets) is not in error in some way, and I truly want to know if anything in my booklets is not biblically correct. (I know there are mistakes). Pat, we are in this together and we must both grow in grace and knowledge, therefore we should always maintain an attitude of being led by the Spirit of Truth. Pat, I want to commend you on you sincerity, your love and hunger in your quest for the Truth, and I am very grateful that you expressed an interest in my booklets and want to post them on your web site. I want to review the answers that you sent in reply to me, and I will then respond to your answers. I will put an "M" in reply to your answers, and so forth. Also review my booklet "The Kingdom of God" again very carefully, and Pat, if we are both honest you and me do not differ all that much. That is, if we can both confess that the whole 70 AD argument is brought about and is based on this huge misunderstanding on prophecy. The famous 70 AD debate of the twentieth century continues........ Hopefully??
Your brother in the faith and race and truth of YAHSHUA, the Christ.
Mahlon
Minuteman Ministries, A ministry of Yahweh. wrote:
Mahlon,
I will address your arguments first and then put some of mine own in. Your arguments are good and must be addressed so here I go: I will put a P: next to my answers.M... I see that you have done you spiritual home work, and I must say you have presented your views on the 70 AD doctrine very well. You have asked some very good questions that deserve to be answered. I am generally familiar with all the views that you have presented.
P: THANK YOU.
M... Thank you also.
M... However to be truthful with you, I humbly acknowledge I do not have the spiritual know-how to confront and answer these questions to your satisfaction (or to my satisfaction). I do know (as you also know) that none of us are able to stand in Christ's place, and explain and understand why Christ 2000 years ago made some of the statements that he did.
P: I AGREE. HOWEVER I NOTICE THAT MUCH OF WHAT HE HAD TO SAY SEEMS TO AFFECT THAT TIME PERIOD HE WAS IN.
M... So what if this is true. He also prophesied of many things that could not effect the known world of his day.
M... To be consistent with New Testament theology some of the "time factors" that are presented cannot be explained, because even the apostle Paul stated that we are seated in the heavens with Christ now. See Eph. 2:5-6. I choose to believe that Paul meant that the Father looks on true believers in Christ as if they were legally already seated with Christ in heavenly places. Are we seated with Christ in heaven now? No, Pat, we are not. There are other statements made by Paul that transcends "time", since he was speaking from God's point of view.
P: GOOD POINT, BUT IT SAYS WE SIT IN "HEAVENLY PLACES". COULD THIS MEAN OUR STATUS AS BELIEVERS IN YAHSHUA?
M... You have made my point exactly! It has nothing to do with "time".
M... I mentioned in my last e-mail to you from a logical viewpoint why I believe Christ's second coming simply has not taken place yet. We have got to believe the apostle John when he stated very plainly that Christ had not yet come when he finished writing the last book of the New Testament. Indeed Christ himself stated (through his angel) that he had not yet come during the writing of the book of Revelation. See Rev. 3:11, 22:7, 12 and 20. Pat, I am of course reminding you of this biblical fact, since I am assuming that you believe somehow that Christ had returned in 70 AD. According to the apostle John and Christ himself this event simply had not and could not have (literal or spiritually) taken place in 70 AD. Therefore from these facts we have to assume that some of the statements made by Christ are not necessarily referring to time factors as we determine "time" (either in past history or future).
P: MOST CHRISTIANS FALL INTO THE TRAP OF RESTRICTING YAHSHUA'S RETURN TO 2. AGAIN I REMIND YOU OF WHERE HE SAID IN LUKE 17:21 THAT THE KINGDOM IS "IN" YOU, NOT WILL BE IN YOU. ALSO CHECK AGAIN LUKE 21. ALL THE THINGS THAT WILL HAPPEN THAT YAHSUA DESCRIBED WOULD BE FULFILLED IN THAT GENERATION. THE WORD GENERATION IN LUKE 21: 32 IS GREEK # 1074 WHICH MEANS AN AGE OR PERIOD NOT A RACE OF PEOPLE. HE SAID WHEN YOU SEE ALL THESE THINGS HAPPEN, KNOW THAT THE KINGDOM IS NIGH (OR NEAR).
M... I addressed the "kingdom within you" thing in my booklet. Read it again. It is true that the "generation" of Christ's day will come up in the judgment, therefore will not "pass away" until the words and judgment of Christ would be "fulfilled". Carefully read these verses again, Pat. It does not say "fulfilled in that generation" as you claim. It says "pass away". Are we to assume that heaven and earth will "pass away" and that "generation" would not? It is very true, the kingdom will be nigh (near) when the things come to pass spoken of in Matt. 24 and in many other prophesies. You are mistaken; the word "Generation" could mean "perverse race" according to Strong's Lexicon no. 1074. Judgment will certainly come upon "this generation" (not age or time). See Matt. 23:36.
M... The statement made by Christ in Matt. 16:28 and Luke 9:27 can be explained to mean exactly what it says. Christ told the apostles that they would not taste death until they saw the kingdom of God. The following verses to Matt. 16:28 and Luke 9:27 explain that after six days (Luke has it "about an eight days") the apostles did in fact witness and see the kingdom of God with the glorified Christ and the glorified Moses and Elias (Elijah). Pat, you stated that this would leave some very old men. No, Pat, they were only six to eight days older after Christ made that statement, and they certainly had not yet tasted death yet. Check these scriptures again. It does not say that they would see the kingdom of God come with "power".
P: SORRY DUDE, MARK 9:1 DOES SAY THAT SOME STANDING THERE WOULD NOT TASTE OF DEATH TILL THEY SEE THE KINGDOM COME WITH POWER. THE VISION OF MOSES AND ELIJAH SEEMS TO BE ANOTHER DEMONSTRATION OF HIS POWER AND GLORY.
M... I will give you this one, dude! I was not quoting from Mark 9:1, which I confess I should have. However I quoted correctly from the other scriptures, therefore making my point. The apostles not only witnessed in a vision the glory of the coming kingdom, but also the power. This was of course before they tasted death.
M... It was as if they were taken forward in time in a vision to actually see a glimpse of the glorified Christ with Moses and Elijah in the future kingdom of God. Yes, it is future, because where have Moses and Elijah (never mind Christ) in history restored all things and turned the hearts of the children of Israel back to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Elijah is promised to do this before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord, and the fact is the vast majority of the children of Israel are blinded as to who they really are! Elijah truly failed to do this work if he came in 70 AD, and God did not yet smite the earth with a curse! See Mal. 4:5-6 and Matt. 17:11 and notice the word "before" in Mal. 4:5. It is interesting to note that Christ said that "Elias is come already", which was referring to John the Baptist, as it states in verse 13. Did Christ contradict what was stated in Mal. 4:5-6? No, this only proved my point that "time factors" can not necessarily be used to determine when certain events are to take place (past or future). With of course the exception of the 70 weeks (of years) prophesy of Daniel.
P: GOOD WORK. YES ELIAS WAS JOHN THE B. AND HE DID TURN MANY OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN AND VICE VERSA. I BELIEVE THIS WAS THE ACT OF REPENTANCE AND BAPTISM, NOT A REVELATION OF WHO TRUE ISRAEL WAS. ALSO, YAHVEH SAID THAT HE WOULD DO THIS, LEST YAHVEH SMITE THE EARTH. IN OTHER WORDS, THE TURNING WOULD HAVE TO BE DONE OR ELSE THE EARTH WAS IN BIG TROUBLE!!!!
M... Wrong! John the Baptist was not Elijah. Where is logic and common sense anymore? It is very obvious that these were two different men at different periods of history. Luke 1:17 says John came in the "spirit and power" of Elias (Elijah). It is true that John did a work of preparing the Israelites to receive Christ's first coming through baptism and repentance. Again this work was a "pattern and type" of the work of the real Elijah to prepare and turn the hearts of Israelites to receive Christ's second coming. John's message was not necessarily a revelation of who Israel was because it was never an issue in John's day. However it is interesting that John did identify the people he baptized with certain stones in the river of Jordan. These twelve stones were the exact same stones identifying the twelve tribes of Israel put there by Joshua crossing the river of Jordan. Therefore John deliberately excluded the Canaanites "generation (race) of vipers" from his baptism. See Joshua 4:9 and Matt 3:7-9. The real Elijah's work is to properly restore the knowledge of the inheritance of the true Israelites through the covenant given to Abrahamic, Isaac and Jacob (the fathers). It is ridiculous to think that this will be a work and a message to turn the hearts of children to the fathers through proper child rearing!! Yes, the earth will be in big trouble (as you put it), if this work and turning of the hearts is not done. However just mentally focus forward 2000 or so years, Pat, from the days of John the Baptist and you will begin to see the picture.
M... I will leave this for now, and I hope I did not confuse you with my thoughts.
P: NO YOU DID NOT CONFUSE ME AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR INPUT, I LEARNED NEW STUFF, TOO. LET ME LEAVE YOU WITH SOME MORE INTERESTING VERSES:
M... Good, I am learning also!
REVELATIONS 1:1 STATES THAT THE THINGS THAT YAH WILL TELL JOHN WILL COME "SHORTLY" TO PASS. AGAIN: REVELATION 22:20, SURELY I COME "QUICKLY". I SIMPLY CAN'T RECONCILE MATHEW 24 AND LUKE 21 AND A LOT ELSE WITH A FUTURISTIC EVENT KNOWING THE HISTORY OF THAT AGE. THE FUTURIST TEACHING WAS NOT EVEN TAUGHT UNTIL 1539 WHEN RIBERA, A JESUIT MONK FABRICATED IT TO TAKE HEAT OFF THE POPE, WHO UNFLATTERING FIT THE DESCRIPTION OF THE BEAST IN REVELATIONS. ALSO, IT WAS THEN SPREAD BY DARBY AND THE BRETHREN IN THE EARLY 1800'S. ALONG THAT TIME TOO, CAME MARG. MACDONALD WITH HER "RAPTURE"DOCTRINE.
M... So what, the deceived church system also teach and have some truth. Scripture is still scripture, and truth is still truth! Just because some Jesuit monk read the Bible and decided to simply believe what is says, does not mean he wasn't correct in his understanding of future prophesy.
WHY IS THIS IMPORTANT? DON'T CUT YOURSELF OUT OF THE BLESSINGS HERE AND NOW OF THE KINGDOM WHICH IS HERE AND NOW.
M... You are right, the laws and the blessings of the kingdom are here and now. Again Pat, read the "Kingdom" booklet again because I cover this. It is too bad that these laws are not enforced as they will be in the future when the kingdom will be here in POWER.
MAY YAH BLESS, PAT
M... Maybe next time I will address the statement "this generation shall not pass away". The saga and debate continues......
Your friend and brother in Christ, Mahlon
http://www.tk7.net/users/bibletruths
If my people which are called by my name, humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I, Yahveh, will hear from heaven and forgive their sins and heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
Minuteman Ministries, A ministry of Yahveh.
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